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Brainstorming the idea of a player driven "PvP Council" within PRO

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ImTrippin

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1. First of all since the staff will probably be the ones choosing the members do not exclude good pvpers because of peraonal bias against them. Even a player with a history of infractions can do better for the game than others, I hope you can agree on that. Now when that is out of the way you should reqruit players that have hit ladder at least twice with a decent win ratio which wouls be around 75-80%. A preferable choice would be someone with competetive experience outside of this game since laddering in different metas gives you a better understanding of how a healthy meta game looks like (especially since there are ladders with better players on average than in this game out there which therefore are harder to reach the top ladder in). Anyone who is not too inactve or does not start harrassing other council members (basically be able to have a civil discussion) should be able to stay for as long as they like and of course they should be able to pvp while being in the council. Having a must 50-50 split between gold and silver is dumb. However there should be at least 2 people representing each server. Going for an equal representation will lead to reqruitment for "fairness" instead of competence.

2. The council will have a discussion and if the majority agrees if a mon should be removed from the game then they will make a thread about a suspect test at the beginning of a pvp season. Everyone can try to be a part of it, however only votes with proof of the player reaching around 400 rating with an 80% win ratio should be able to participate (council members automatically get to vote for already being capable of being worthy to balanc the meta). Let there be a season of testing and give the participants 1 week afterwards to vote and show screen shots of their stats in the season.

3. Staff should be able to have an opinion before the council issues a suspect test and also suggest a ban topic. They should not be able to have any power over the decision making. Of course if there is capable staff then they are welcome to join the council as well. But they should never be able to interfere in a decision making process. The council has a role for a reason and worse players in terms of pvp do not have a valuable opinion. Pretty much just like you don't want an elementary kid solve an advanced math problem instead of a high educated mathematician.
 

Komata

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I would say this is a bad idea
can be easily manipulated
just because of the environment of this game

of cause you would pick people with high ranked
then how can you tell they are inter-independent?
what is the high rank environment of this game? they are from only few pvp guilds.
are they from the similar group? yes.
are they friends? probably yes.
only with these 2 feature can make any council/organization corrupted
If someone acts in his own benefit, he will be removed from council, the rest of the council players should know who is acting fairly and who no. Also the Staff.
If we will think than everyone is corrupt then we cant improve as a community.

Hi,

I will try to explain my opinion about your questions, this is only my opinion.

1-
How long can they stay on the council?
I think that the council should stay the same while they're going well, it means that players should maybe vote if the council should stay the same or not, each vote will need some explanation, you can't fire a council because they Don't ban the pokemon that counter your team. The council should recruit new members or maybe make changes but it needs a base stable.
What are the requirements?
The requirements should be a well experience of game, I thought about more than 1000hours, a well experience in pvp (I Don't know how to determinate this), and a proof of motivation, the willing to make the game better.
Should they be able to participate in ranked PvP while being on the council?
I think that every players in the council needs to play pvp, to understand the meta, to be able to know what is wrong, how to improve the system.
How would the split between Silver and Gold members look like?
It should be 50% players gold, 50% players silver, we need both point of view, meta on Silver isn't exactly the same as Gold, so Gold player need silver opinion and inversly.

2-
How does the council decide what Pokemon to sent into a suspect testing phase?
This is a reflexion which must be in agreement with 75% of the council, Staff will have the right of veto.
How would a suspect test look like (a special suspect ladder is out of question)?
2weeks to 1month of suspect test, it will be in ranked pvp, there is nothing better than test a changement on the pvp game itself, we will be able to analyze the reactions of players, and to adapt the evolution of suspect test in answer.
Who gets to vote after the suspect test is over?
50 ladder players of both server, council, staff. All vote need at least one explanation, we need to avoid a useless ban, or corruption.

3-
How much influence does staff have over the council?
Like I said before, the staff has a right of veto, if they think that the council does something wrong, they can interrupt a suspect test, or changes the council.
When can staffs interfere in the decision making process?
There will be a discord, where staff members and council will discuss, before take any decision.

Thank'u for listening to me, I repeat that this is only my opinion, hope you a good day.

Nakofum,
I like your "Veto" Idea but it should only be applicable when someone try to take advantage from his position or something like that. or giving a really huge reasons.

Hi, I think its really hard to create a PvP council

I want to say something about this, players shouldn't be choose by the pvp ladder. Cause we all know one thing, its not cause you are in the ladder during x month that you are good or you get good knowledge in PvP. The members should be choose, on some points, first of all and its the most important they have to get different main pvp style : balance, Hyper offense, Staller,
Original player ( = player who don't use Pokemons in the most used list ). Cause if you get 6 staller main on 10, rules will always go in favor of stallers). i think Staff should choose members after a postulation and a discussion about PvP in general (for test their knowledge). And at the end, some PvP match to test them. Sorr but a men who win only with a Togekiss timid scarf and flinch, all the match has nothing to do in this council.
Totally agree.
 

MentalBull

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The big disclaimer at the start of everything: This thread is not a confirmation of a PvP Council nor will there be an ETA if one comes. Thread is about brainstorming the idea and execution.


A PvP Council has been one of the most suggested things by top level players within this game for months and years now however it was never done. I would like to give everyone the opportunity to brainstorm the idea, how a player driven PvP Council could look like, how things are decided etc.

The big questions that should be answered here:
  1. How are council members picked?
    • How long can they stay on the council?
    • What are the requirements?
    • Should they be able to participate in ranked PvP while being on the council?
    • How would the split between Silver and Gold members look like?
  2. How are suspect tests decided?
    • How does the council decide what Pokemon to sent into a suspect testing phase?
    • How would a suspect test look like (a special suspect ladder is out of question)?
    • Who gets to vote after the suspect test is over?
    • What are the requirements to vote?
  3. What would council members need from staff in particular to make it successful?
    • How much influence does staff have over the council?
    • When can staffs interfere in the decision making process?
Unlike this thread: PvP Council, this should be about the execution of a council. Any off-topic comments, insults, drama inciting, taunting or any negative posts will be deleted. This thread is also not about writing "+1" or that you like the idea, it is solely for brainstorming how things could be executed. Don't ruin this chance for yourselves, show us if a player driven PvP council is even realistic within this community.

Best Regards,
Qeight


If this in the end doesn't happen, please don't be upset!
So I’m gonna give my take on this based on what I have seen happen in another game and offer my advice. Please don’t shoot me down for relating this to another game im only offering my take. In that game the staff appointed a pvp council based on people they think are good with no true method of selecting anyone.
The results: we now have a pvp council who decides what to ban (and some members have abused this by selling pokes they voted to ban before it happens. There is also a lot of people who disagreed with their decisions and due to the way they were “appointed” they don’t even have a solid pvp record to stand on.

My message: don’t make the Same mistakes. Produce a clear method of appointing a council via the pvp ladder top players. Come up with a transparent method of proposal ... vote .. and change. Re select the council each month or each season (winter summer spring autumn) so that new players have a chance to join (based on pvp skill) and old decisions can be reversed by future councils.

If you just make a council with no method of selection and then it’s done with no rotation you’ll a disconnect will occur between the council and the rest of the playerbase.

I’d also suggest making a rule that council members agree not to sell pokes that are being voted on.

Hope this insight helps.
 

Qeight

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That's why I made the thread in the first place, if we were to do a player driven PvP council then everything had to be clear. I couldn't come up with a good solution on how to appoint the council members or how to select them in the first place. That's why I wanted to give the opportunity for others to voice their opinion.

I totally agree you on the fact that we have to appoint the best, not friends or people we know. If we want this to work then we have to work together to find a good solution.

As for rules and such, I already have a rough idea what council member rules were and that would include not abusing infomation from the council discussions (selling prior to decision making).
What makes this harder than a PvP Council on smogon/showdown is the fact that this game isn't solely PvP, we have to take into consideration everything including the economy and the market.

I brought up this example yesterday, changing Snivy to a Tier1 spawn would have a good impact on the metagame but realistically it goes the MMO aspect of the game.
 

Komata

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So I’m gonna give my take on this based on what I have seen happen in another game (pokeone) and offer my advice. Please don’t shoot me down for relating this to another game im only offering my take. In that game the staff appointed a pvp council based on people they think are good with no true method of selecting anyone.
The results: we now have a pvp council who decides what to ban (and some members have abused this by selling pokes they voted to ban before it happens. There is also a lot of people who disagreed with their decisions and due to the way they were “appointed” they don’t even have a solid pvp record to stand on.

My message: don’t make the Same mistakes. Produce a clear method of appointing a council via the pvp ladder top players. Come up with a transparent method of proposal ... vote .. and change. Re select the council each month or each season (winter summer spring autumn) so that new players have a chance to join (based on pvp skill) and old decisions can be reversed by future councils.

If you just make a council with no method of selection and then it’s done with no rotation you’ll a disconnect will occur between the council and the rest of the playerbase.

I’d also suggest making a rule that council members agree not to sell pokes that are being voted on.

Hope this insight helps.
Really good point, of course Staff can determinate if some player are just acting for his own benefit. And it should be punishable.
 

Rise

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I think a PvP-Council would be a nice adittion in-game.

  1. How are council members picked?
    With an application or interview that the staff will do.
    • How long can they stay on the council?
      Every season the staff needs to check the improvements, if the council did a great job they stay. In the other side, the staff can change the council if they didn't do a great job.
      Toxicity and inactivity counts to kick a member in the council.
    • What are the requirements?
      A good activity in-game and PvP in the season.
      1000+ hours in-game.
      A "good" historical behaviour record.
      Knowledge about the actual meta.
    • Should they be able to participate in ranked PvP while being on the council?
      Yeah, because the council needs to see the improvements on PvP.
    • How would the split between Silver and Gold members look like?
      Depending the number of members, the staff will choose half of each server.
  2. How are suspect tests decided?
    Creating threads where users can check and complaint about a pokemon in-game meta.
    When the staff release a new pokemon, the council needs to review it and take a decision before they get added to the game.
    • How does the council decide what Pokemon to sent into a suspect testing phase?
      Checking users opinions and testing the Pokemon to take a decision. (Pokemon in the actual meta-game.)
      When the staff release a new pokemon, the council needs to review it and take a decision before they get added to the game.
    • How would a suspect test look like (a special suspect ladder is out of question)?
      The council will debate about the pokemon centralizing in moves, the base stats, etc.
    • Who gets to vote after the suspect test is over?
      The entire council will do a thread about the pokemon to check people's opinion and votes. Then, the entire council will vote to make a final decision.
    • What are the requirements to vote?
      The activity of the players in the council will be checked.
      Players will need more than 300 of rank to vote in threads.
      1000+ Hours in-game.
  3. What would council members need from staff in particular to make it successful?
    A discord where council and staff can have a contact.
    • How much influence does staff have over the council?
      The staff can review and making an opinion about the council idea before releasing it in-game.
    • When can staffs interfere in the decision making process?
      In the final decision before releasing the changes.
 
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Samurai

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  1. How are council members picked?
    • How long can they stay on the council? 2 Months, every 2 months the members of the council get changed, the top 10 players of each server become part of the council if they want.
    • What are the requirements? Top 10 player of the month council starts, 3 Staff players to manage it (this don't mean they have control of it),
    • Should they be able to participate in ranked PvP while being on the council? Yes, sure.
    • How would the split between Silver and Gold members look like?10 Players from each server,the total would be 25 members
  2. How are suspect tests decided?
    • How does the council decide what Pokemon to sent into a suspect testing phase?Have a huge conversation about it, where EVERYONE would need to talk and give his opinion, if a member don't give opinion in 3 days he needs to be kicked for inactivity(if a member is going to travel etc, he need to says it on the council and warn everyone, with this the member don't get kicked for inactivity)
    • How would a suspect test look like (a special suspect ladder is out of question)?Have a conversation about it and see if everyone agrees.
    • Who gets to vote after the suspect test is over? For every change votes are going to be needed, and to be approved the result needs to have 75% as positive votes
    • What are the requirements to vote?Be a member of the council ofc.
  3. What would council members need from staff in particular to make it successful?
    • How much influence does staff have over the council? The same as others members, there is no exceptions.
    • When can staffs interfere in the decision making process? They can when they suspect the result have been staged(like 5 friends decide to vote the same thing just to troll the council)
This is my opinion.
 

Tyranitar

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So I've given it a bit of thought, I read a lot of the suggestions and there has been a lot of good ideas. I want to try to make this the best, most even, and most efficient way to handle this situation as possible. uwu

!!! How are council members picked?
The big question. As mentioned by many users before, an application and a brief interview would suffice. Not only do council members need to be able to be level headed and know what they're talking about, they also have to be reasonable, down to earth, and ready to accept new ideas and possible problems that can and will occur. Someone who can be a team player but also be independent. There will be a lot of debating, surely, especially between those that value Smogon rules and those that don't. PVP top latter players should be highly considered; however, just because you know how to sweep a hundred people with Dragonite doesn't mean you're able to understand why Swagger is such an overpowered move, etc etc. I know this was a /drastic/ understatement for the sheer talent of these individuals, but they have to be chosen wisely. Knowing what you need to know is more important than having a lit team is the point. & A specific application can be sorted out later, ofc. But this also raises some questions.
  • How long can they stay on the council? Quoting Rise, "Every season the staff needs to check the improvements, if the council did a great job they stay. In the other side, the staff can change (or elect) the council if they didn't do a great job. Toxicity and inactivity counts to kick a member in the council." I think this sums it up. This is a really good strategy to use, HOWEVER I believe it should be up to the userbase and the staff alike to decide if they're doing well or not. If the people aren't happy, things aren't ok. Duh. So, quoting Komata, "I think that the council should stay the same while they're going well, it means that players should maybe vote if the council should stay the same or not, each vote will need some explanation, you can't fire a council because they Don't ban the pokemon that counter your team. The council should recruit new members or maybe make changes but it needs a base stable." Which ties into the next question.
  • What are the requirements? Firstly. As I stated before, these people must be reliable, trustworthy and able to actively perform their duties. They must be independent but also a team player, being able to think for themselves but also work well with the others in the group. Using an application and an interview would be amazing, especially one on Discord. :) Extensive knowledge and experience in and about VGC, Smogon, and Revolution's meta is a must... You don't gotta be a walking Pokedex, but you need to know what works, how and why it works, and vice versa. I don't believe intense constant activity is necessary in Revolution's PVP if they are informed. (remember this for the next question). Knowing is more important than doing for a thinking job. This job should be strictly for balancing the meta, putting pokemon on suspect tests, testing potentially broken moves, sets (especially for reported bugs), etc. etc... Weeding would not only help the dev team by actively weeding out battle related bugs, but it also adds a helping hand to the userbase at a much more rapid pace to troubleshoot and problem solve. For instance, say rain dance doesn't work for
  • Should they be able to participate in ranked PvP while being on the council? I dont see why not; the people chosen for this position won't be using this for personal gain. This position is strictly for balancing the meta. There should be no perks, bonuses, or anything of the sort awarded to council members in PVP; HOWEVER if the council is not allowed to participate, possible compensation could be given, as a sort of "paycheck" so to speak for being unable to participate in the game's events.
  • How would the split between Silver and Gold members look like? I think mostly everyone has agreed so far on the 50/50 rule. I agree with it, too, but since the metas are the same exact thing it doesnt really matter in the long run. How many members will there be? If there's a group of about 15 people or so, I think that's enough to be able to get things done and have a successful unit.

  1. How are suspect tests decided?
    • How does the council decide what Pokemon to sent into a suspect testing phase? Alright, so this one is pretty easy. I'm taking a quote from Jumpman16's article on Smogon: "The Suspect Test Process began in earnest during the Spring of 2008. This process initially aimed to challenge the enduring conventions of a competitive Pokémon game that had perhaps observed bans and clauses that were not in the interest of the game. Pokémon like Rayquaza and Mewtwo are Uber without question, and the necessity of Sleep Clause in competitive Pokémon is similarly unchallenged. But when considering Pokémon like Latias in the Generation 4 Standard Metagame, as well as new Pokémon like Manaphy, Garchomp and Shaymin-S, you realize that their tiering deserves to be assessed fairly and through a regimented process. I labeled such Pokémon as “Suspect”, whose full definition is: any Pokémon, move or clause that respectively may benefit competitive standard or Uber battle if moved or implemented elsewhere." Check out his thread on what makes an Uber classified as an Uber. This is essentially how the process goes. If we take a lot of ques from Smogon, it'll be much easier than trying to implement things randomly or take them away randomly. We have a lot of data, Pokemon fans over the years have found a lot of utilities we can use for suspect testing in our metagame, and continue to every day. We gotta use all the resources we can! Every bit of knowledge helps, and our council should be hungry for it. :)
    • How would a suspect test look like (a special suspect ladder is out of question)? Pretty much all previously stated.
    • Who gets to vote after the suspect test is over/what are the requirements to vote? Literally just gonna steal this other thing from Rise too. Real straight to the point:
      • The entire council will do a thread about the pokemon to check people's (staff and users alike) opinions and votes. Then, the entire council will vote to make a final decision.
      • The activity of the players in the council will be checked, making sure they are fulfilling their roles.
      • Players will need no less than 300 of rank to vote in threads.
      • 1000+ hours in-game.
  2. What would council members need from staff in particular to make it successful?
    • When can the staff interfere in the decision making process? When any sort of foul play is suspected. If someone isn't doing their job, or is being shady, the staff must intervene and come to a conclusion. There shall be NO shenanigans :@ These shenanigans can be discussed more in depth later.
    • How much influence does the staff have over the council? The staff may not use their power in any way, shape, or form try to sway the council for their own personal bias; however they are entitled to their opinion just as any other user is. Aside from that, I do not believe the staff should have the final say. It should be up to the council its self or whats the point, and there could be an appointed member to be basically keeping everyone updated, being a manager of sorts? :)
I'd love some input on what you guys think about this!
 
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Madtrainer

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I did not reply earlier cos I wanted to see how the thread was going to be.
I see that instead of talking with each others, people just use the template and answer the questions.
This is how they share their ideas and I will try to do the same.
I could not answer the questions, I will only state what is, for me, important.

1- For the first section, I would like to say the same as in the last PVP council thread (In suggestion sub-forum). I would like to see good PVPers in the council, but I would also like them to be constant in their rating. Constant high rating means they will have consequent knowledge about the Meta.
They should of course be able to do PVP. Some find this question weird, but I think I understand at least, one of the reason the question was firstly asked. I'm not scared of them using their ''power'' to change the meta in a way they prefere. There should be enough people in this council to avoid unfair or sassy decision to be made. Also, participating to PVP would help them staying informed about meta.

For the requirements, I think some playtime would be of course required. We dont need low playtime members who will likely leave in a week. It may look big, but I would aim for around 1500 hours at least. If there is some recruitement to be done by the staff team, I would really like this to be made fair and seriously. I dont want a ''not very mature'' kid to be in this council. We already have enough bad sportmanship in the game. There could some kind of democratic vote done for some stuff too. I dont know if it is viable for the council member recruitement.

I sadly dont have clue about time they could stay into the council. There should be same ammount of players from both server. Nothing much to say for this first section.

2- It can be decided by many ways. If someone make a serious thread on forum about banning a Pokemon, they could look inot it, see if this is a serious thread and think about it. They could also proceed to a well built vote among players with about 200 rating to see if there is many people thinking the same as in the thread. The main objective is to amass information from the community about this Pokemon. Since they should be fiable, they could also, in all their knowledge, choose a Pokemon wich could be suspect tested. Players should alwais have the right to vote in any case just to see what people think. It can look weird, but I think it can be helpfull. The main objective of the vote is not to get at least 51%. 25% people thinking a Pokemon should be ban is already a high ammount imo, but I wont talk much about this cos it is hard to explain (English is not my main language =P).

Next step is the suspect test. I have no clue about it right now. Just knowing that a Pokemon is suspect should make people being more aware of this thread and test or see how the meta is running with it. When the supsect is done, I would proceed to another vote among the players (Around 200 rating too I guess). There should also be a vote in the PVP council. The PVP coucil would analize both their votes and the players one and take a decision. Their own vote would have a bigger impact than the players one, and they would have the last word. Abusing this power would lead to serious sanction. I would like, everytime a Pokemon get banned or unbanned, to have both a forum section/thread or wathever wich explain the reason of the decision, the final votes in both sides ect. If a councilis to be made, I want something serious and professionnal.

3- The staff should not have a any influence on the vote for a precise ban. But if there is abuse and stuff like that, staff would still have all their usuall moderator power (They will alwais have anyways =P). Staff should be aware and more present if a vote concerning an unban is made. Even with a PVP council, some stuff should never be accepted. I wont precise cos, imo people are wise enough to understand what I mean. But if needed, an agreement could be made about some Pokemon to stay banned even with a council.

I would personally like some rules to be added about this council and I want to be able to see them at the same place as others. There is some stuff that could help the council such as a forum section, PRO Discord room stuff like that. It is not mandatory, I'm just sharing the idea.

I think this is all I think as idea tonight. I'm happy that the staff ask us our opinions. Also happy to see such a great idea to be thinked about. Thank and good game! =P
 

hahahaka

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If someone acts in his own benefit, he will be removed from council, the rest of the council players should know who is acting fairly and who no. Also the Staff.
If we will think than everyone is corrupt then we cant improve as a community.
things like what MentalBull said happens all the time
human being is never a thing as simple as you think

especially
PRO is a guild-based / friendship-based / family-based game whatever you want to call it, not like smogon
trading happens a lot with friends and within guilds, selling / borrowing / giving, and even sharing the accounts
how can you know Council member won't indirectly transfer / give benefit to other people? example like MentalBull said
smogon is suitable for having a pvp council only because the players are totally independent
they don't have transactions among the players, not like PRO

and I don't see much people concerning 1 thing:
why do we need a pvp council?
actually I don't see any reason why, just to bring up some pokes that OP?

xrevolutionx94 already did such thing years ago
https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/index.php?threads/ban-unaware-softboiled.73707/
then a poll came out
https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/index.php?threads/softboiled-and-unaware-ability-combined-allow-or-ban-from-ranked-pvp.73808/
and speed boost blaziken
https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/index.php?threads/ban-blaziken.88455/
eventually they got banned, things done, simple

then
what is the different between creating a thread to discuss and pvp council?
why do we have to give somebody unnecessarily power?
"never give a handgun to a monkey"
 
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