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Brainstorming the idea of a player driven "PvP Council" within PRO

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Komata

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things like what MentalBull said happens all the time
human being is never a thing as simple as you think

especially
PRO is a guild-based / friendship-based / family-based game whatever you want to call it, not like smogon
trading happens a lot with friends and within guilds, selling / borrowing / giving, and even sharing the accounts
how can you know Council member won't indirectly transfer / give benefit to other people? example like MentalBull said
smogon is suitable for having a pvp council only because the players are totally independent
they don't have transactions among the players, not like PRO

and I don't see much people concerning 1 thing:
why do we need a pvp council?
actually I don't see any reason why, just to bring up some pokes that OP?

xrevolutionx94 already did such thing years ago
https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/index.php?threads/ban-unaware-softboiled.73707/
then a poll came out
https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/index.php?threads/softboiled-and-unaware-ability-combined-allow-or-ban-from-ranked-pvp.73808/
and speed boost blaziken
https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/index.php?threads/ban-blaziken.88455/
eventually they got banned, things done, simple

then
what is the different between creating a thread to discuss and pvp council?
why do we have to give somebody unnecessarily power?
"never give a handgun to a monkey"
Staff have enough tools to determinate if someone leaks information, or try take advantage about his position. The simple threat to get a permaban is enough to handle this.

"Actually I don't see any reason why, just to bring up some pokes that OP?"

1. I don't go to say how good or bad are the arguments who the actual Staff gives in the thread about ban Manaphy. Just check it and judge for yourself.

2. This is not about some OP Pokemons, this is about the entire metagame. Some strategies, some pokemons who, basically with the actual available moves and pokemons that we have, are too strong to handle them. Centralizing the game between those Pokemons. (How many rain teams or how many conkeldurrs you see in your games).

3. "never give a handgun to a monkey"

NEVER, That's why we are brainstorming about how select the correct members.
Anyways, I preffer do not consider no one as a monkey.
 

Baganha

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1. How are council members picked?

How long can they stay on the council?


As much as they want to, so as long as no toxic behaviour or signs of procrastination are shown from these people, if someone wants to give up their position as a council member they should have every right to, as well as making an annoucement on the forums/discord etc. and wait out until the end of the season to give up his place for someone else, who should replace its spot, i believe a voting should also determine the new replacement.

What are the requirements?

Obviously owning a lot of knowledge regarding anything pvp is a must, so if they consistently put out good results, that's a great start, however i dont believe rating scores should be the only measure to judge someone worthy of this position. If a player who has consistently put out amazing results but hasnt kept in touch with the community, isnt very active and never participated in discussions regarding pvp, in my eyes, is not a good option for the council, i would rather have someone who isnt as good as the example mentioned above but has a presence within the community and has participated and if possible influenced the meta in the past, this shows that they do have knowledge about the game even if they arent the best in at it and always achieve number 1 on the ladder, they should be more comfortable and equipped in discussing a competitive meta than people who just play on the ladder, this isnt to say that any mediocre player who just happened to talk a lot in previous discussion should have a right to become a member of course, only those who actually have shown results in the past or currently and bring good and articulated arguments to any discussion, in general i dont advocate anything along the lines of "top 10 or 25 form each server should candidate for the council" as it doesnt truly portray the person's skill and knowledge of the game, especially when you have some people making in with really bad win% (no offense).

Should they be able to participate in ranked PvP while being on the council?

Absolutely, this will make them more informed and qualified to discuss a meta, makes no sense if they are getting their information from other peoples prespectives and not theirs, there wouldnt really be a point in making a council if they are being absent on something they should be supervising.

How would the split between Silver and Gold members look like?

There shouldnt be a split at all, the resources in silver and gold are the same, the only diference is the amount of players, the meta should be the same for both servers, if something is broken in one server, its the same for the other, same thing goes for something not being broken. If a council has 5 members and they are all from silver or gold so be it, if they are more qualified for the place than the other server i dont see why they arent more deserving of getting that spot.

2. How are suspect tests decided?

How does the council decide what Pokemon to sent into a suspect testing phase?


The council should have a discussion regarding whatever they think is suspect test worthy or has been brought to their attention from their community (an actual legit argument, not someone crying because they cant beat stall of course). In that discussion, if the members of the council reach a conclusion and put out their opinions, there should be a supermajority that agrees something should be suspect tested for it to go through, exact percentage would probably differ depending on the amount of members there are in the council.

How would a suspect test look like (a special suspect ladder is out of question)?

I believe a regular season is pretty good to take place for the suspect, this meaning that a suspect should only happen in the beginning of each season or maybe delay the season if it seems more convenient for players.

Who gets to vote after the suspect test is over?

Those who achieve the reqs i guess, im not sure what being asked here, seems like a pretty obvious answer.

What are the requirements to vote?

Something like achieving between 75 or 80 win% with a game range of 40 to 60 or 80 games sounds good to me, its a bit arbitrary on judgding what reqs should someone have to vote on a suspect but i think the reqs ive mentioned should cover mostly people with enough qualification to know what they are doing, and if possible maybe have the possibility of resetting your rating and record, to give a better chance for anyone who might've not been able to do it in their first "run", tho thats a bit hopefull of me.

What would council members need from staff in particular to make it successful?

How much influence does staff have over the council?


I believe staff should report anything the council may not know that could be of use, community's opinion on the competitive environment, usage stats (if possible) all that sort of stuff, not sure how much info staff has on pvp so this might be a dumb answer.

When can staffs interfere in the decision making process?

Only when the members seem dubious or corrupt, which lets hope this will never happen, in case that is a thing, the staff should have the right to report the incident and ban the player or players responsible for this.
 

Tyranitar

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How would the split between Silver and Gold members look like?

There shouldnt be a split at all, the resources in silver and gold are the same, the only diference is the amount of players, the meta should be the same for both servers, if something is broken in one server, its the same for the other, same thing goes for something not being broken. If a council has 5 members and they are all from silver or gold so be it, if they are more qualified for the place than the other server i dont see why they arent more deserving of getting that spot.
Honestly, this. There isnt any advantages or disadvantages to either server. Same stuff different day. Metas aren’t different, people shouldn’t have to represent a certain server. Just doesnt make sense to me.
 

ikonos123

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To start off i would say that pvp coincil is a bad idea, in pokeone it clearly failed and in smoogon they have the best players in the world to do it (and even then, bans are still very discussed)
On pro it would only lead to more complaining, when the problem with balance in pvp is due to bugs and some key pokemons missing.

That said if you really have to make a pvp coincil things have to be done correctly.


1. How are council members picked?


How long can they stay on the council?
As much as they want to, only those who are able shuld be doing it.

What are the requirments?
Some people in this game only want a position that puts them above others, this people will do whatever is possible to gain that position, so it s a must for every memeber of the council to proove their knowlage about pvp.Only people that does good in pro turneys (winning and reaching semi-finals) and in ladder (reaching 80% with atleast 200 games played) shuld be allowed in pvp coincil.

Should they be able to participate in ranked PvP while being on the council?
Yes, doing pvp s the only way to have knowlage.

How would the split between Silver and Gold members look like?
This is irrelevant, this can work only if the most competent people are picked.

2.How are suspect tests decided?

How does the council decide what pokemon to send into a supect testing phase?
Not too many suspect tests have to take place, a pokemon is suspectable when it s uncompetitive, that doesn t mean a pokemon can' t be overpowered.A pokemon becomes uncompetitive when it has high usage, it has from very few to no awnsers according to their set, and requires from little to no prediction.Before sending a poke into testing council has to discuss about it s revelance in the meta, about it s sets and counters, only if the poke has the basis to be suspected the council will vote to start the suspect.

How would a suspect test look like?
People will be called to do atleast 50 wins with 80% win ratio in pro in order to express their opinion and the discussion would be opened in a thread on forums.

Who gets to vote after the suspect is over?
Players that meet the rquirments would.

3.What would council members need from staff in particular to make it successful?

How much influence does staff have over the council?
Council shuld be part of staff.

When can staff interfere in the decision making process?
Whenever the criteria to suspect a poke arn t met. When banning a pokemon in pvp it s important to consider the impact it has on the meta and how much it limits teambuilding.
 

HeroOfTheStreet

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The more I think of this, the more I come to the conclusion that having a PVP council in a game like this (with an existing economy and with people grinding for hours) would actually indeed be a bad idea. In an ideal world, the PVP council could actually work, but only with neutral players taken from outside (like from showdown for instance, who would just be part of staff and occasionally PVP in PRO just for this purpose), but of course, I'm completely aware that's just impossible and therefore things should actually remain the same way they are right now, as bad as that sounds. Let's just say, that keeping it this way would be the lesser evil out of the two. Not to mention, I completely agree with the bolded part of Ikonos's sentence, just a quick reminder on it in case someone did not see:

What are the requirments?
Some people in this game only want a position that puts them above others, this people will do whatever is possible to gain that position, so it s a must for every memeber of the council to proove their knowlage about pvp.
I'm sick and tired of such people and of course, they will always exist both in real life and in online gaming. Such kind of people most of the time tend to abuse their powers (some to a lesser extent and some to extremes) and by cumulating 1+ 2 (in which 1 represents the previously mentioned kind of people and 2 the economy and hours spent on grinding in this game) it's not hard to come to the solution/conclusion of this task, which would lead to people being in the council abusing their power for the good of their guild/former guild mates, friends and most of all, for themselves, while being more arrogant than ever. It would have a huge impact on the economy and people would be more salty than ever (in most cases justifiably), which would eventually intoxicate the community even more. I'll just make a quick example on this. Let's say I got a godly jolly Beldum/Metagross and the megas are out. I use it in PVP, I top the ladder with a high win ratio while using it and someone from the council (regardless how skilled and knowledgeable in terms of pvping he is) comes to the idea to ban it just to harm me or because he doesn't like (nor has) the mon in general, of course with the support of the others because he's more influential than the other player (in this case me). This all sounds like politics, doesn't it? With all that being said, the PVP council (if it will ever be formed) has to be made of neutral people with knowledge about the PVP aspect of Pokemon, taken from OUTSIDE. Otherwise (as said previously) please let it be just the way it is now, because as much as the staff may be lacking knowledge in this field, they are (the head and pernament staff) at least to some point neutral, if not totally
 

Baganha

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Reading these last two comments is scaring me a bit, are there really not an handful of players who are willing to take the format for what it is and not personal gain? While i definitely believe such people would candidate for the position, i am sceptical that everyone would be trying to harm the pvp meta.

Anyways if that is the case then i support even more the idea of nominating someone who has contributed and participated in pvp discussions in the past, those are the type of people who truly want to see the format flourish to its best, not get a bigger bonus from it.
 

Komata

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To start off i would say that pvp coincil is a bad idea, in pokeone it clearly failed and in smoogon they have the best players in the world to do it (and even then, bans are still very discussed)
On pro it would only lead to more complaining, when the problem with balance in pvp is due to bugs and some key pokemons missing.

That said if you really have to make a pvp coincil things have to be done correctly.
I suposse this is an opinion, but honestly, I don't think in the other game it failed.
They ban the correct pokemons, just because you haven't the Keys Pokemons in the game. It is exactly what we need. In addition, This is a really good opportunity to really improve the game.

And, yes I'm ok with your opinion about players who wants only the power.

We really needs a good method to determinate wich players are prepared to work in the Council.
 

teerav

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Wow, some really great points made throughout the thread. I will most likely echo some statements, so I apologizing for not quoting. It simply means I agree. I will make my comments based on a PvP Council that is seperate from staff is decided.
  1. How are council members picked?
    • Initially, there should be a massive thread announcing a PvP Council will be created. Anyone interested in being a council member should apply. Staff Admins should comb through all applications and select all who qualify. From all that qualify, there should be a strategic selection of council members that make sure to give voice to as much as the community as possible. An example: Even if a single guild has multiple members that qualify for council, only one should truly be a member. That one member can represent that section of the community.
      • How long can they stay on the council?
        • Council members should be evaluated every month on simple requirements, such as their activity in discussions, the community, and pvp.
        • Every three months or so, council members social status should be evaluated. If council members have guilded or maybe started to hang out in the same clicks, one of them should be replaced to make room to represent more of the community.
        • If a member of the council should ever need to be replaced, then the selection process describe above should take place for a new member.
        • Experience breeds success. As long as a council member meets the requirements and makes good decisions, they should keep their seat.
      • What are the requirements?
        • Up to date experience in PRO PvP - Should have finished within the individual ladder of either server at least once within the past three months.
        • Experienced in PRO - Should be a member of PRO for at least six months and have completed all of the story.
        • Respected reputation within the community - In order for a council to work, the community must trust them. Staff Admins should review their history and there should be character references as well.
        • Experienced in Showdown / Smogon - Yes, PRO is very different, but the idea of the council comes from that. It is extremely important council members understand how councils work successfully in that environment. Combined with experience in PRO, they can make educated adjustments.
        • Social within the pvp community - Council members should know what the rest of the community is talking about.
      • Should they be able to participate in ranked PvP while being on the council?
        • Yes, absolutely. It would not make sense to not allow the people making decisions on pvp if they do not have continued experience pvping.
      • How would the split between Silver and Gold members look like?
        • There should be 7 or 9 total council members that socially expand across the entire community. I assume there are more total players in silver, so it would probably be a 4-3 or 5-4 split.
        • The number of council members should be odd to ensure there are no tied decisions.
  2. How are suspect tests decided?
    • In most cases, it will be obvious. PRO is unique to showdown in that it currently only has one tier and not everything is coded. During updates the community should expect a wide variety of suspect testing, but outside of that it should be done only with strong reasoning.
      • How does the council decide what Pokemon to sent into a suspect testing phase?
        • There should be a serious discussion within the council every time a something is added to the game that will obviously effect the meta. Such as: Shaymin becoming obtainable, Mold Breaker being coded correctly, Z-Moves becoming a thing, etc.
        • If pokemon exceed a specific usage % it should be immediately considered for suspect testing. For example, if 50% of the playerbase is using Togekiss, it should be considered for suspect testing.
      • How would a suspect test look like (a special suspect ladder is out of question)?
        • The community must be informed when a suspect test is being started. And maybe even consider a soft announcement for when a suspect test is being considered. Transparency is very important in this matter because decisions to ban things from PvP can greatly effect the market.
        • How the testing is done should be up to the council. Council members should be encouraged to socialize, communicate, and test with the community as well with other council members. It should not be handled as a "lets close the doors and test in secret."
      • Who gets to vote after the suspect test is over?
        • The council members, no one else. The 7 to 9 members vote after an appropriate amount of testing and communicating with their social clicks.
      • What are the requirements to vote?
        • You need to be a council member. What is the point of a council member if they are not the ones making the decisions? :bruh:
  3. What would council members need from staff in particular to make it successful?
    • A single staff member should act as the organizer for the council. They should be there to answer related questions they have for staff. This staff member should also act as a liaison between council and community. The liaison should be making official posts communicating to the community on the councils discussions and actions on behalf of staff. However, it should be held against council members to community it themselves. There should just be a staff member to organize and summarize discussions for the community to follow along.
      • How much influence does staff have over the council?
        • As stated on how the council members are chosen.
        • Staff should ensure the council equally represents different areas of the community.
      • When can staffs interfere in the decision making process?
        • Almost never. Give council the trust to make proper decisions, let them do their job.
        • In the event decisions are made in spit of staff, such as council members disapproving staff actions so they use the council powers of influencing the economy to tank the PRO market, staff should take actions. Probably start by listening to their complaints.

EDIT: "It should not be handled as a "lets close the doors and test in secret.""
 
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Dinou

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1.How are council members picked?
How long can they stay on the council?
-As long as council goes well, there shouldn't be any changes on their members.
What are the requirements?
-I don't think having "+1000hours playtime" is neccesary, it makes no sense. Picking an member is important part of it, if an player is good at pvp and has experience, why should it be avoided because of playtime. Aswell as "showdown" i don't know why council should be affected by it, since pro meta have nothing to do with it, it's like 2 different thing that can't be compared. I surely would support the idea picking it based on winrate, simple because player of higher 80% winrate have more experience on competitive games, could be picked aswell as official tournaments ending :) the winner of such tournaments aswell shows his experience on this case.
Should they be able to participate in ranked PvP while being on the council?
-Of course it should, why they must be a part of pvp council if they don't pvp, like how they can decide without pvping, their important advantage of being member of council is that they pvp, and doenst miss some parts of their brain on this cases.
How would the split between Silver and Gold members look like?
-I think 50-50% would be fine, since i don't know how gold ladder goes, but having atleast 2 member from gold would be fine, since they would balance the council, like how silver player can decide on it without knowing gold meta, aswell as gold deciding about silver.
How are suspect tests decided?
-Most suspects should be based on their percentage, since this mon would suspect test, and if it doesn't ruin meta anyhow. I think council should also listen atleast a bit to community, and ask their opinion about deciding on this case.
How does the council decide what Pokemon to sent into a suspect testing phase?
-As i mentioned before it should be based on their percentage, and in most cases it should be started suspecting on same time as pokemon is implemented in game, since there pvp council should be first one to be asked how this mon will affect the meta, and should it be allowing to use this season or not.
How would a suspect test look like (a special suspect ladder is out of question)?
-the council decides based on usage, and how this mon impact problems to the meta, if the mon is higly overused, and it deal massive damage to the current meta it should be banned, untill you get implemented an solid counter for this mon that suspect test.
Who gets to vote after the suspect test is over?
-The players who got on ladder, but on high ones should be voted only by council
What are the requirements to vote?
-Got on top 25 this season. Higher winrate than 60%.
What would council members need from staff in particular to make it successful?
-Most important is organisation. Channel on discord with their personal roles would be fine, aswell as new discord group.
How much influence does staff have over the council?
-I don't think staff must dominate the council. :) council are the ones who decides about most important thing that should be discussed on current meta. Staff have nothing to do on this case,just because if the player that applied is not liked by staff, this doenst mean he must not have chances to be apart of council. If community think the player who applied is skilled enought, staff shouldn't trying to do everything to not getting him in council, just because they had some conflicts on this case :)
When can staffs interfere in the decision making process?
-the process should be maked by council, not staff.



Thats all. Thanks for your time
 

Qeight

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I will respond adequately in the upcoming week ^^
 
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